Joe Mattioli's Ancient Orange and spice Mead recipe

[Mamgiowl]

And?

[Darren]

Right im of out to get the ingredients tomorrow and then on Saturday will start it off what yeast did you use in yours her lushness and did it turn out dry or sweet i like my wines slightly sweet but not too sweet i made some tea bag wine in my early days before i used a hydrometer and put way too much sugar in 6 Months later and i still can't drink them they are way way too sweet i learned from that mistake very quickly will post a couple of pics on Saturday so you lot can keep me in line and make sure im not messing it up

[Her Lushness]

I used a general purpose yeast - it would have been a Gervin one.

Like you I made some tea bag wines too sweet, but to rectify I made another gallon of the same wine to very dry, and blended the sweet with the dry, and got a medium wine - and jolly nice they were too!

[Her Lushness]

And?

HRRMPH! (I'll let you off coz you're a birthday girl today)

[alan66]

What is the finished alc content of this mead?

Thanks

[magicaardvark]

A simple solution then

I'll make one gallon with Hovis bread yeast like Pete, and one gallon with some wine yeast like Her Lushness, see which comes out to my preference and blend if necessary!

I'll see if I can get some pictures up at the weekend.

Mike.

[Her Lushness]

What is the finished alc content of this mead?

Thanks

Both mine started at 1080, ended at 0990 which gives them an ABV of 12.2%

They're both still clearing (this is after 5 months) but I'll back sweeten them before I bottle them, probably to about 1015.

I'm still hoping they may be ready for Xmas or New Year as I began them in May, but I'm not holding my breath.

[fatbloke]

Quick tip time.

If you can get to read the original recipe then follow it religiously.

Why? Because over doing virtually any ingredient can cause it to be "blleeeaaaarrrrrgggggghhhhhhh" enough to have to age it for longer than may be necessary.

To start with, I seem to recall that Joe did say about being careful with the cloves - yes I've over done it with them. Enough so that it took 12 months for the excessive clove taste to age out - you might be unlucky and happen to use cloves that have a lot of clove oil/essence in them, it could, quite easily, render it undrinkable (and yes, I have a solution for that but Bob doesn't like to discuss such matters).

The citrus fruit is also something to watch. Why ? Because in a similar fashion to the cloves and my penchant for experimenting a bit, I've got 2 gallons of JAO that was made with lemon and lime. I used one of each in each batch (one gallon is with bread yeast and the other was with 71B). I should have stuck to half of each, because right now they're just dropping the sediment that was picked up during racking and the small taste from the syphon has told me that a) I prefer it with the wine yeast and b) there's such a strong citrus flavour in them as to be virtually unpalettable.

If you're worried that the pith in the citrus might cause a bit of bitterness, then zest the fruit first and then segment the flesh out of the inner skin.

If you follow the recipe implicitly and remember the little tips, then you might just have something drinkable in less than 6 months. It's a very easy, straight forward recipe if followed properly - but it's also easy to over do it......

Meads aren't like most other wines, I've yet to make one that is drinkable straight away. They've all been hideous when young, but they do age marvellously. The longer the better.

Plus it's worth remembering Bob's suggestion of using a varietal honey if it's cheap enough (He mentioned clover). This is because the cheapest honeys are blended/pasturised etc and may contain honeys that are known not to be suitable because of strange flavouring issues - ergo, Eucalyptus honey is a good example. There maybe others - there are certainly others that can take a hell of a long time to age - heather being a prime example (they don't always though).

Just my 5 pence worth.

regards

JtFB

[Her Lushness]

...so is it okay that I am still waiting for my two JMAOs to clear after 5 months?

I was considering racking them this weekend to see if that helps at all, or shall I just leave them alone?

[lockwood1956]

(and yes, I have a solution for that but Bob doesn't like to discuss such matters).

I'm sure I dont know what you mean dude

Just my 5 pence worth.

hells teeth talk about inflation

[lockwood1956]

I was considering racking them this weekend to see if that helps at all, or shall I just leave them alone?

yes

leave em be!


step AWAY from the DJ

[lockwood1956]

(and yes, I have a solution for that but Bob doesn't like to discuss such matters).

oooohhhhhhhhhhh



you mean delestage right?

[Zebedee]

Never heard of it...

Whats Delestage ?
and how do you pronounce it

deli - stage or d - lest - age ?

[Her Lushness]

... before you all think I'm a smarty pants, I googled "Delestage" and came up with this, courtesy of Wine Business Monthly - September 2003;

Delestage is a great French word, pronounced 'del-ess-TAHJ,' meaning a specific fermentation management process for red wine. It is also known as "rack and return." Originally aimed at shortening the time for red wine to reach the market, delestage certainly moves the wine in the right direction, but not all the way. However, extended maceration, also aiming at faster maturity, could work with delestage and standard fermentation manipulations to achieve not only a wine ready for market early, but with high quality and aging potential.

Delestage Defined:

Delestage means the process of fermenting red wine with skins and seeds, and doing sub-heroic treatments to the fermenting mass to insure not only a complete fermentation, but to achieve a finished wine with good fruit, soft tannins and stable color. Part of the motivation to study and to perform the process called delestage is the advancement of the date of marketability of the red wines treated this way. Simply put: delestage may enhance not only wine quality, but cash flow as well. Professor Bruce Zoecklein at Virginia Tech has done some excellent research on the quality of the results of this process. In detail, the delestage procedure is as follows:

1) The de-stemmed and crushed red grapes are pumped or dumped into a fermenter. The fermenter is usually open-topped, and equipped with a drain valve at the edge or the center of the tank bottom.

2) The fermentation is begun in the standard way.

3) The delestage really starts here: the first step is to drain the tank through a bottom valve, into an intermediate container by letting the juice/wine flow freely across a screen to capture and remove some of the seeds, a step known as seed deportation. (Seed deportation is not really a part of the word delestage. However, seed removal is so important in the improvement of the wine that I think of it as an integral part of the process.)

4) From the intermediate container, a pump then sends the juice/wine to a second tank.

5) This trip is done with some fanfare: the wine entering the second tank goes in over the top to become aerated, read that 'sprayed,' into the receiving tank. Magnificent aromas fill the fermenting room as a result.

6) The seed-catching screen is emptied as necessary to keep a good flow without spilling the juice out of the screen or the small intermediate container.

7) After all the juice/wine has been removed from the starting tank it is, in fact, returned to starting tank, where the huddled mass of grape skins waits.

8) The returning wine also goes in over the top, with spraying, to accomplish a second aeration.

Whether the delestage process is performed once a day, or twice a day, or every other day, seems to vary from winery to winery. The amount of seed deportation varies as well, being somewhat dependent on the slope of the tank bottom and the location of the drain valve used. The fermentation is normally completed in five to seven days.

Benefits of the Process

Several beneficial things occur in this process:

First, in any red fermentation the major reason for disturbing the fermenting must (grape pulp and skins) is to re-distribute the heat being produced by the yeast while it converts sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide. That is what both punching down, or 'pigeage,' pronounced 'pidgee-AHJ,' and the alternative process, pumping over, are all about. Formation of bad flavors on theas extended maceration was more in vogue, designed to achieve some of the same results: the combination of early marketability and improved wine quality. In this method, after the normal management of red wine fermentation, as the fermentable sugars were nearly consumed, the winemaker would seal the red wine tank with all the must and seeds inside, providing only a vent for the final blasts of carbon dioxide to escape. And wait. Different producers processed the pomace (fermented must) at various lengths of time after closing the tank.

The measurements I observed in my fermentations were that the tannin components continued to increase over 14 days or so, and then stabilized. At that day 14, the wine was the harshest in its history. During the next two weeks, the chemically measurable amounts of tannins would remain constant, but the harshness of the wine, as perceived by tasters, would decrease gradually.

At the 30-day point, the rate of change was slow, and therefore the date for pressing was not very critical. At one winery, the pace was so relaxed that the extended maceration went on for 90 days! With the tank lid closed, and with no peeking allowed, there seemed to be no hazard of forming acetic acid, or vinegar, on the top layer of the wine/pomace. However, during such a long contact time, the seeds gave up a lot of harsh tannins to the immediately surrounding wine. The wine at the bottom of the tank was extremely bitter and harsh. Fortunately, the tannins were sequestered in a small amount of wine in the immediate vicinity of the seeds.

When it was time to draw off the wine, a gentleman named Jack Gerstenberg was given the task of tasting the highly tannic, bitter effluent from the bottom outlet, to determine when the majority of the tannin over-dosed wine was removed. He performed this tasting penance chore for a while, and finally signaled that the wine was soft. That point of noticeable decrease in tannins is now known at this winery as "The Gerstenberg Cut-off."

The high tannin fraction of the wine was set aside in a small container. It then went through a self-fining that greatly reduced its harshness, to the point that this small portion could be blended back into the main batch with no ill effect. Here, the self-fining is taken to mean that the harsh molecules formed into combinations that precipitated or were soft enough to be acceptable.

In Concert

In normal extended maceration, the pressing is done close to day 30, with the result that color and fruit are quite alive and the tannins are quite soft. Both delestage and extended maceration achieve a part of the desired result, but each accentuates only a part of the wine development. Delestage does well to introduce oxygen into the early process to stabilize fruit and color, and to encourage the joining up of harsh tannin molecules into bigger, softer ones. Delestage also minimizes the impact of seed tannins. On the other hand, extended maceration is sparing of oxygen in the early part of fermentation with either pigeage or pumping over for heat re-distribution. In the extended skin contact period all oxygen addition is stopped, and development of larger, softer tannin molecules goes on anyway, in the presence of grape skins and pulp, in a process that is still not well understood.

Meanwhile, with standard fermentation practices, wines are produced with less fruit and color than delestage can elicit, but with harsher tannins than either delestage or extended maceration develop. However, the mid-palate sensation, or body, is fuller, more mouth filling, than either of these other two methods can generate.

Can I have a special geeks brownie point now please?

[Mamgiowl]

What the heck is a 'sub-heroic' treatment?

I have visions of a weedy little man wearing his Y- fronts over his trousers, his string vest revealing not a six pack but a bony rib cage. He is cowering behind a chair whilst dealing out the treatment at arms length and shaking in his tweed slippers.

Am I right?